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Charlie Rose

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Israel 19, Turkey 11, Us 7, Cairo 6, Egypt 5, Somalia 5, Sudan 4, U.n. 4, United Nations 3, United States 2, Libya 2, Tunisia 2, U.s. 2, Resolutn 1, United Nations General 1, Phobia 1, Li 1, Nato 1, Navy 1, Accountabl 1,
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  WETA    Charlie Rose    News/Business.   
   (2011) New. (CC) (Stereo)  

    September 21, 2011
    11:00 - 12:00am EDT  

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>> charlie: welcome t our program. the 66th annual general assemy opened in new york today. leaders including president obamaand french president nicholas sarkozy and ban ki-moon. obama talked about the issues and the palestinian bid for full u.n. membership. here's a look at what the president said. >> most will not come to statents and resolutn at the united nations. if it were that easy it would have been accomplished by now. ultimately i is the israelis and palestinians who must live side by side. >> charlie: so then, a conversation with the prime minister of turkey. >> the general awesomably has
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very verdicts about israel's attitude but despite those verdicts, there has never been sanctions. there are sanctions imposed on others, for example sudan. parts sudan were imposed certain sanctions but the same sanctions were never put on israel when it comes between israel and pal stan no sanctions were imposed. palestine is a state but nobody helped palestine and we have to
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take that step -- palestine state and israeli state. >> charlie: we conclude then with the egyptian jrnalist ethar el-katatney. >> i think now the majority egyptians no longer do we have this fear. it's very much -- that we've reclaimed what it means to be a citizen, to have a power. that you're empowered and i think once egyptians have that thers no goingack. >> charlie: prime minister recep tayyip erdogan and journalist ethar el-katatney when we continue.
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>> every story needs a hero we can all root for, who ats the odds, comes out on top. th this isn't just a hollywood story line, it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens, or the midnight oil is burned, or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you want to root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. captioning sponsored by rose communications from o studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
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>> charlie: among the important leaders addressing the united nations general assembly in attendance here meeting with her dignitaries is prime minister of turkey. he will address the u.n. tomorrow. yesterday he met with president obama. the unrest in the arab world put a new focus on turkey and on his leadership. some say secular democracy is a model for the countries of the arab spring. he has emerged as a prominent voice in the range. he traveled in egypt, tunisia and libya and tehran. i spoke to him yesterday at the hotel and here is that conversation. tell me where you see the united states and turkey cooperating and the relation relationship s developed between you and the president.
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>> [indiscernible] are getting this within the [indiscernible] which are all strengthen the relationship between [indiscernible] and today we are speaking about the -- our efforts aregoing to be proceeded with in a very efficient way sniffle is there a spial relationship between you and the president? >> of course this is how
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[indiscernible] ie, between turkeynd the united states [iiscernible] but we have initiated theodel [indcernible] in an incrental fashion [indiscernible] and as far as the president appreciates the situation and it makes us greatly happy to see [indiscerniblewe are actually very friendly towards one another and we are together in international platforms that is laying the foundation of
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resulation between the two countries. >> charlie: is the united states helping you monitor the pak in northern iraq. >> as you're probably aware in 20 [indiscernible] were declared as a common enemy by [indiscernible] and the same approach, same perspective is still applicable [indiscernle] against terror as another offense requires joint [indiscernible] and in turn sharing the intelligence is crucial [indiscernible] and other an that [indiscernibl >> charlie: the predators. >>rom receiving the support.
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>> charlie: the predators. >> yes the predators. >> charlie: and the development of the radar shield, is that moving along? >> let me try to elaborate on that. it would be the strong approach [indiscernible] the defense shield is something different from what our radars [indiscernible] of a radar system. it's the step taken [indiscernible] through the own stallment of the radar system. that was the decision reached [indiscernible] and that is why
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we [indiscernible] most appropriate location for the radar. and we used to have a radar in the past [indiscernible] our system is installed just to defend these countries [indiscernible] such dictatorship [indiscernible] this is something that we decided in the framework. >> charlie: you as the leader have recently visited cairo, libya, tunisia. it has been described in the press as rapturous applause and acclaim and there are billboards of you on the streets of cairo,
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large billboards. and there clearly seems to be a response to you. what do you think that is about and you visiting these capitals? >> i have seen very deep appreciation from the people there. the way they welcome, the way they greet us and all throughout the meetings we organize, the interest [indiscernible] they have shown us was worth that appreciation. we have delivered [indiscernible] and the messages we conveyedn those gatherings, focused maiy on the credit systs [indiscernible] the position of democracy, vis-a-vis the [indiscernible] and we define how we define
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[indiscernible] and on the issues of [indiscernible] we have spoken about the [indiscernible] and we acceuated that unity come together. the people there want to see [indiscernible] taking er the adnistration, they don't want to be administered by [indiscernible] they don't want to see autocratic regimes. they want to liberate themsees once and for all from all forms of [indiscernible] administrations. and they wish to see -- from the countries where they had similar experiences inhe past. there are certain prospective political parties that voice their demands. we have spoken to them and we have spoken to the candites, we have spoken to different candidates and we try to share with them our experiences at the end of the -- we have come
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together with the [indiscernible] >> charlie: right. >> and it was hard for me to leave egypt after all these [indiscernible] >> charlie: the headline coming out of cairo and your speech was you were recommending a secular government, a government that hadno particular religion, but a government at that time respected all religions. is that right? that's how you define secularism. >> there might have been circumstances conveying that in translations. i hope the tranlations [indiscernible] in my [indiscernible] in all of the documents that put my party together [indiscernible] i would like to go back to the definition that was i the 19th cotitution of turkey. according to [indiscernible] secularism [indiscernible] the state is secular and the state
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remains equi distance [indiscernible] which is a guarantee by the state. this is what i tried to congay. the secularity approach is [indiscernible] and there's a different approachn western europe. however they aroach, however they define secularism, i partially am sure, but the people who live in those countries are more knowledgeable than i am. but in the provisions that put together a party or in the constitution in turkey, there has never been the market that is pointing out to be against one division or [indiscernible] like egypt or other countries secularism is translated or defined as something against
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religion and we have spoken that secularism is not against religion. >> charlie: as you well know, one of the members of the muslim brother hood spokes out against your idea about secularism, objecting to it. >> he came up with the remark that he misunderstood my remarks because on the very next day i spoke to the president, the vice president and the [indiscernible] the muslim brotherhood [indiscernible] but then they had never ske to me about this misunderstanding so i believe there was no [indiscernible] >> charlie: also in the speech there was at some had charactezed and in yourth remarks as a strong anti-israeli
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attitude on your part. do you have a strong anti-israeli attitude today because you are unable to get them to apologize. >> [indiscernible] the way we approach is taking the constitution the israeli administration, the israeli administration as you are aware of the fact that international territorial waters, in fact [indiscernible] con taining more than 400 people from 33 countries [indiscernible] was rated from the [indiscernible] at the end of which nine people were lost and there are many wounded as well.
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in international waters [indiscernible] is against international law. it's not -- and according to be the [indiscernible] it is a very low attempt. and moving on from this, one of theeople who was lost is [indiscernible] due to the fact israel is supposed to apologize, is expecked to apologize, expected to pay compensation and eliminate embargoes imposed [indiscernible] then they have renounced -- >> charlie: what happened? >> [indiscernible] but it has caused a friend like
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[indiscernible] to be lost [indiscernible] the relations between turkey and israel are out of the question to become normal begin. there is one reason behind the [indiscernible]it's not the israeli people because they're not happy about the demonstration but that'sow i believe the situation to be. >> charlie: out o the question to have normal relationships. >> so long as we go on like th, if they don't apologize, if they don't [indiscernible] if the embargo is not eliminated, it's not possible to normalize. these activities should take place between relationship between the two countries can normalize. >> charlie: you have engaged in rhetoric that calls israel a spoiled child. you suggested that there was aggression and even criminal aggression. your words. does that pep matters to use
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that kind of vantage? >> i am speaking of the fact [indiscernible] for example the security council of the united nations, the general assembly have various verdicts about israel's attitude. but despite those verdicts, resolutions [indiscernible] there have never been sanctions imposed on israel where there are sanctions imposed on for example sudan. when they were breaking fe from the north, parts of sudan were imposed certain sanctions. but the same sanctions were never in question for israel when it comes to relations between israel and palesti, no sanctions were imposed. but you are probably aware of
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the fact in orde for palestine to be recognized as a state is dating back to 1927, resolution 181, promulgates palestine as a state. but [indiscernible] nobody helped [indiscernible] as a state. they had to take that step. palestine state israeli state. if we are talking about it why aren't we executing it. >> charlie: my question has to do about your rhetoric because some are asking this question of you. are you using anti-israeli rhetoric to gain more credibility and more popularity among arab states? >> [indiscernible] i'm not concerned about popularity at all. i'm just speaking about what's right and what's just. i am trying to cater
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to [indiscernible] my priority is justice. without justice you can never develop. if there is [indiscernible] i cannot just overlook that. nine of my [indiscernible] were killed. it's actually a reas for a prosctive war. we didt consider it as a reason for war, we were patient because we are [indiscernible] >> charlie: but you considered appear -- an act of war, did you not. an attack by the israelis. >> if the occasion would have asked [indiscernible] but as i said, due to the fact that we were a great state, we kept our [indiscernible] together. i wonder what would happen if the state would encounter such american citizens getting killed in international waters by other states. at would happen. such incident, would it be
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welcome by the states? what kind of countermeases would have -- this is how we approach the situation. >> charlie: you exaccept the u.n. study that wasone ggesting iaelis had a right to blockade gaza? they said two things. israis had a right to blockade but they had used excessive foe in the floatilla incident. >> there's nothing right about this. there's noing just about this. put aside gaza, palestine right now is an open air prison. you got their permission, you cannot actually get a case full of tomatoes in gaza or palestine. these people live under rsh conditions, they are [indiscernible] and where to put these ople within the
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framework of the universal declaration of human rights. where is humanity, where is the rest of the world [indiscernible] that they so desperately need. that's what [indiscernible] israel has done [indiscernible] and arms power to a certain extent. they will never [indiscernible] but israel has nuclear went -- weapons but palestine is never going to [indiscernible] this is logical. this is not wise. how ca you say yes to such an approach? this is how we approach the situation, this is unacceptable. and we're defending ones that have been victimized and that's actually what we're going to keep on doing. i feel justice has been served and the rights have been returned to those who need it. >> charlie: do you belie the israelis have a legitimate concern about their serity. eir right to exist, their
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freedom from missile attacks. >> israel is an occupant force right now. during the time of [indiscernible] he accepted reverting back to the borders [indiscernible] but rightow israel is an occupt force, an occupant power right there. even though that is the case, they are still asking for more. or putting efforts to get even more. the palestinians are trying to save their land and they're expecting justice to served from the rest of the world. that is what they are trying to do. so, we are the same [indiscernible] it says that a thief that never gets embarrassed will speak louder than the police.
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and this is what they are doing. it's a [indiscernible] there are issues that need to be [indiscernible] by the united nations [indiscernible] delivered the speech last year at the general assembly speaking about [indiscernible] as a positive development for the ospective future [indiscernible] i hope and pray that such a positive development will occur as soon as possible. >> charlie: s you met with the president today. did you talk to him abo the consequences of a u.s. veto if the palestinian state had issued comes to the security council. it had to be on your agenda. it had to be on his agenda with you. >> we're not a [indiscernible]
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security council [indiscernible] we're not sure what kind of an add to the they're going to you dopt. -- to adopt. palestine needs nine votes out of the security council. palestine in the direction of their application [indiscernible] it's going to be very positive [indiscernible] through the general assembly and it is going to be in the form of [indiscernible] that is how it's going to turn out to be. >> charlie: so did you in a conversation today with the president urge him not to veto, to vote, not to vote against palestinian statehood? >> do you think i would not?
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they have spoken abt the fact that they wouldn't expect anything other than that from us. >> charlie: will there be consequences if the united states votes against or vetoes the statehood effort in the security council. >> right now i'm not in the position to comment on [indiscernible] my expectatis, my expectation is that he has as great [indiscernible] and recognizes the legitimacy of the country in the life and resolution that was taken in 1957 [indiscernible] this person should be revenated and it should be [indiscernible] i
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believe whatever it was spoken of in last year's deliberations, it would be catered to. that's what i expect. >> charlie: how long will the process take, do you think? >> i'm no quite sure. i hope and pray it will be done as soon as possible. >> charlie: the ve will come as soon as possible. >> the application and the resolution of the security council. i hope that happens as soon as possible. >> charlie: do you also hope there will be parallel direct negotiations between the israelis and the palestinians? >> it seems not likely right now. but as far as i'm concerned before the palestinian question gets resolved, peace in the middle east can never be restored. the palestinian question should
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be resolved so that peace can prevail. that is the key of peace in the middle east. >> charlie: let me just clear this point up because i raised it earlier. those who suggest that your rhetoric against israel is in part giving more popularity to you in the arab world that there is a kind of direct correlation as your popularity of growing up with the level of your rhetoric in terms of an ti-disappointment with israel over the floilla incident. >> all right. turkeyhether in e region, whether in the rest of the world has certain duties,hether it be the functions with nato or
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the functions in ogc20 and other institutes that have been taken up in order to restore peace in the region. that is how we should approach turkey. that is the point of view you had approach turkey. we enjoyed [indiscerble] and i am the same person but one should sit down and wonder what happened then so the relations [indisceible] most probably due to the mistakes made by demonstration [indiscernible] and th american world should have pressure on israel. israel should not believe that th can get away with everything. turkey right now has grown immensely inthe last nine years. they have taken areat [indiscernible] in the last nine years due to the
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democratization. the economy and democracy developed and we are taking [indiscernible] in order to restore progressive democracy. there's no -- whatsoever between turkey and its neighborhoods. but unfortunately in recent times due to the steps taken pie israel, we are in this very upsetting situation. who are you to attack all those navigating in international waters. that's what israel did. it wasn't the class between us. our trade was mutual, we were very great, very promising. but if we're speaking abo something very negative today that is due to the israeli attitude, we have relations in the litary realm, in the economic realm, in the jerusalem realm and in the political realm. but right now all of these relations have been diminished significantly.
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>> charlie: it is said that today there's a power vacuum in that region. after the colloquy war and secondly after the arab spring which continues. and that turkey would like to move into that vacuum and play a significant role in the future of the region. >> that wouldn't be a great gain for us. we just go wherevere are needed. that's not the political ethics we abide by. we're not dividing duty [indiscernible] we are sharing a common culture, common values. we are sharing common histories with many, and we assume responsibility [indiscernible] we have cultural [indiscernible] we are sharing kinships. we have a border line of more
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than 110 kilometers with syria. we have a border line of [indiscernible] we have great border line with iran. we cannot ignore [indiscernible] kinships have been forged in the country. we are traveling back and forth. we have very complex relations that draws us closer. lib non-with jordan, we are enjoying the relationshi [indiscernible] long time history and especially with the gulf countries [indiscernible] in order to ensure thathere's reasonable cooperation in place. turkey has not entered this realm all by itself but because [indiscernible] turkey was drawn to that vacuum if you will. and it's very logical for us to be there it would be bizarre if we were not there. france, germany, the united
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states and the uk are there even though they're not [indiscernible] why wouldn't y keep it in the region, why wouldn't it be in the center of attraction. >> charl: so you nt to be a player in the region and you nt to move into that vacuum? and you will. >> no we need to be because we have certain skills in terms of -- turkey ranks second right after china [indiscernible] of course can help tremendously in terms of the infrastructure and the super structure. and in terms of the [indiscernible] many jordannian companies have prepared commercial [indiscernible] for themselves. so why wouldn't turkey be part of the international [indiscernible] trying to do everything we cato solve the problems of the region in a very peaceful manner. >> charlie: since i have known you over these years, you
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have expressed the idea that turkey can also be a bridge from the west to the muslim world. does that continue to be an objective of yours? >> here is what we want. the rest of the world and the islamic world, turkey should play the role [indiscernible] an ample where islam and democracy can coexist where the population is 99% muslim, we have this [indiscernible] and older we have forced the lines of civilization with the prime minister of spain. >> charlie: right. >> more than 100 institutions [indiscernible] are members to the [indiscernible] under the auspices of the u.n.
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[indiscernible] you might wonder why. we don't want to see a class of civilization, we want to s an alliance of civilization on a global [indiscernible] by turkey in a leading position and we will do whaver we are expected to do in the future. >> charlie: do you believe there is a rise in moderate islam in the world today? >> i am not happy with this definition. moderate islam is not an acceptable definition. islam is islam. it rejects all forms of access. never could admit to accesses. islam always recommends we just be mainstream, the middle road. [indisceible] arabic language which can be translated [indiscernible] islam is originated [indiscernible] that can never allow any form of terror. that's why it is unacceptable for islam and terrorism to be spoken of in the same sentence.
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if a muslim had become a terrorist, that's because of his own [indiscernible] it's got nothing to do with him being a muslim. islam would never allow [indiscernible] because killing one person is equal to killing an entire human race [indiscernible] within the christians [indiscernible] within the jewish people, you have seen -- taking places [indiscernible] you have seen whatever is taking place in arab spring. so [indiscernible] does not have a [indiscernible] and this is how we should approach this. islam should never be a [indiscernible] crime against humanity. islam phobia is a crime against humanity. this is how this phrase should have its place in people's mind. >> charlie: there's also you're here and you will make a speech to the united nions and you're going to speak to the
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issue of famine in somalia. >> the next day i will deliver a present agent the ne day. >> charlie: what is your message? >> i will touch upon somalia. i have not just heard about somalia. i personally went down to somalia to witness whatever was going on because there are certain things that you need to know. you need to see in order to know. i've been there with my family. my wife was there, my children were there. we have observed the situation [indiscernible and i have witnessed unbelievable drama, human drama and i have witnessed personally little children losing their lives on an ongoing basis. and there's nothing close to hygiene. there's nothing even remotely close to the hospital and that's why we went there a
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imdiately started -- we're still building up the hospitals and right now we are working on constructing a robust structure that can house 200 patients. [indiscernible] we convey to our peoplelong with the participation [indiscernible] we have collected funds worth about $300 million in aid from air ports to t roads. the hospital is the infrastructure. the investments will be allocated funds. our teams are getting together. we already have the teams in the fid and we are going to immediately inaugerate
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[indiscernible] we will continue doing whatever [indiscernible] garbage trucks, we would be sending [indiscernible] for them to be able to grow agriculture. i will teach them to fish instead of sending them for the fish. i'm not going to [indiscernible] i'm going to teach them how to fish. that's what matters. we are going to actually [indiscernible], we're going to provide incentives for the turkish been businessman to go down there. wee going to have salia stand on their own two feet thout discrimination and without a concern whatsoever [indiscernible] we're just going to do everything we can. and very respectful businessman ofhe united states, very respectful country men [indiscernible] are more than weome to lend a helping happened to the people of somalia. >>harlie: are you still intent and urgentbout joining
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the european union? >> you are probably aware of the fact we've been on the threshold for the past 15 years. we've been watching the develop for the past 15 years. right now [indiscernible] is not putting forward an intention. we're not a country that is actually disconnecting our relations. we want theommunity to decide what the direction is going to be. we are doing our homework. we're doing everything we can. i hope and pray that [indiscernible] and i hope turkey will not become a victim [indiscernible] >> charlie: there's also talk of an increased presence on the part of the turkish navy. in those waters.
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does that mean as part of turkey's emerging strength and influence, that no longer is the issue of no problems but now there's much more of an emphasis on smart power as well as litary strength. >> turkey is a guaranteed country and those rights will be defended by our navy and so our navy will be present there. we are sending a [indiscernible] ship in order to carry out [indiscernible] >> charlie: thank you very much. >> charlie: ethar el-katatney is here. she's an egyptian journalist, he's a blogger and an author. she's actively involved in the historic protest in egypt last spring that overthrew the former president. i'm pleased to have her here at this tain for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, i'm happy to be here. >> charlie: why are you here in the united states. >> this is my first time in
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americament i'm here on a fellowship with the world press institute based in minnesota. there were ten journalis from ten different countriearound the world. we tour ten states. we have the biggest news room, biggest organizations all around and learn about u.s. journal and politics. it's been very interesting. >> charlie: tell me what the moment is in egypt. >> oh, egypt. today or yesterday now they were supposed -- last week on fday, there were huge protests, they attacked the embassy, destroyed the interior calls, there was fire. there was a protest outside eat generallion radio and television union. the problem that i see is what that did is that the military have now decided to enforce emergency la emergency law, we've been under that for maybe, li 40 years or something. and under emergency law. last year we actually reduced the emergency law only concerning thing of terror or drug afficking and t actually -- but now last week
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the military decided to enforce all of the emergency law which is worse. th's one of the primary demands, removal of something, if i'm under emergency law and there's more than fivepeople gathered that's against the law. if i'm sitting with five of my friends at starbucks the law will pick me up, no trial, no nothing. >> charlie: as you say -- and they were hoping the army would do it day one. >> and now we're right back to even, we're right back to where we started. not everything, but in terms of this idea they're going to enforce it even more. so today there were supposed to be protestthat were actually ainst that calling, critiquing the army, how could you do that. not only a you thou he people showed up which i think shows you the apathy when you have so many cries, there's no vision no unity what are we working towards what do you want, we
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never had a protesticlure or idea these are demands and how you go about getting them -- these giving the military just cause to crack down even more. you have elections that were postponed, they were supposed to be this month in october and now it's in november and having different elections at different times just increases the transitional period which means it potion -- postpones how long we will get a president. the judiciary said -- dragging them on. they drag out and when they drag out, people get tired. people want to go back to their day to day lives. people are exhausted. we're not so much change happens. >> charlie: which is an interesting point about this. the peopl who created this revolution, the people who had regular jobs. they weren't people who have been involved in a movement for the most part.
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they were people who had jobs as doctors and lawyers and nurses and teachers and a whole range things. and joualis. >> everyone. and actually, that's what made us successful i think the idea that there was no leader, it was just one unified vision. we want him to go, we want the regime to change. but now that they did that, now it's kd of like okay w what. now even people who are demanded now we don't want the head of the supre council of armed forces. as egyptions there's a book written and the premise his argument is over the last 30 years egyptians have been duced to children. you feed them clothe them but don't make them think. it's very much a dependence culture and a culture that lives day to day existence. there are people who live on $2 a day that's below the poverty line. they live day to day. i can't go tell them your lives
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are hard now but in ten years your children will have a better political life. all it boils down to is our lives were hard before the revolution, they're harder now living in this risk and uncertainty which mains the revolution was bad. >> charlie: there's a context in egypt they believe they can't with the army or without the army. >> very much you have allhese jokes the army is a live whose husband is cheating on her. she knows she can't do anything because she wants the kids to be -- all these egyptian jokes. we have high humor and mellow drama. the army has [indiscernible] do you know the ay walked into the square we greeted with them like flowers. here take our babies. it's a joke. every singlperson changed their picture standing next to the tank because with war, 7 3, 67, the army's always had a very kind of grandeur. they're very very big in the eyes of egyptian. >> charlie: it probably grew because theyid not crack down. >> exactly. you can cpare it.
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what's happening is the army stood by the egyption people, they chose us over they'll. >> charlie: the dictation of the army crew. >> definitely. to be fair to the army, they could have done very very negative. at the same time you have to realize sometimes there's a different agenda but there are so many different agenda. even for the trial of mubarak, the people stayed on tv saying how transparent the military is, they've done this. and a lot of people realize that not so much that this is actually very smart move by the army. not just completely but the idea it does give them added credibility, transparency, it reinstates goodwill. and it also helps ease like three days before that, they cleared out the square from july 8th until for almost a couple eks, i was at the square a day before they cleared it out. when they cleared it out, a huge negative out pouring towards the army, how could they do that right before it started and a day later was t trial.
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and that was like oh look people just suddenl forgot about the army, how they cleared out the people. we were already planning on leaving because of the holy month. >> charlie: let me ke sure you have a growing pessimism. >> i'm naturally pessimistic. t i can't be, you can't say that it will be until you actually see what happens. so even though, all the expectations were e elections would be postponed but you have a more negative reaction that they would be rated somow or we would even up with a part or however much the jigsaw in the ends upcoming which parties take at. until that actually happens, until we have something solid and concrete to be oh this is what happened. that means this is in relation to this, we can't really judge. my biggest pessimism or you can say negative expectation is that people forget that cairo is not the square. i went out to upper egypt to
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villag to report. outside of cairo, so many people don't care. they don't care who is president, who is leader. they don't care about the army. they care about feeding our kids, send them to school, want to be able to get married and get a job. i have my village leader and that's high look to. if youell me about constitution or in i'll ask him. whatever he tells me that's what i do. that's the majority of the population. the other day now -- and he was greeted, you know, everyone's so happy. so i covered that protest and th i went out to the house of the exprime minister and people are like you shouldn't have resigned we loveou. so why are you here, why do you support him. she says no i don't support him, i hate that guy. i am here to protest against the dick share theship of the people who are speaking for us. my fear is the people outside of cairo who only see and call now,
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you're just a bunch of youths who are irrational and all you did is mess up our country. now we have all this chaos and anarchy. our lives aren't better and now we don't like you and now we will support the military because we don't like you or we will supporthatever happens. even with pro mubarak. it's not because they are pro mubarak, they are pro a life, let's just get our life going again. we've lost billisf dollars of tourism down the drain. this is my fr that the average citizen comes to sear the revolution was bad. just having it was a bad idea. >> charlie: there is a 50/50 chance that will happen. >> at this point your guess is as good as mine. you can't predict at all what can happen at this point. >> charlie: mubarak. >> mubarak. >> charlie: the trial of mubarak. >> the trial of mubarak. i was watching that with my parents and i remember my dad started crying. i asked why he was crying. he's an old man, t dinner between my generation and the elder generation who grew up
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with mubarak. i grew up with mubarak as the old -- he did so much for the country, you haveo be realistic. but the idea of the elderly we grew up in a culture that's very, you look at your leader as your grandparent especially since most of them are really old. like when we interviewed the candidates, they are old minute. and to have respect for your elders is a huge thing. you look at your leader as one you respect but not necessarily people you appointed or hold accountable. so look his sons are protecting him in the cage from the shame of being on tv. for huge out pouring of sympathy for mubarak much like the his second speech i was born here, i will die on the soil. but the trial is interesting in the sense that a lot of people didn't think it would happen. that created a whole lot of goodwill toward the army. but also the idea that i don't think mubarak would actually go. i think it will drag on until he
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dies. i think his sons will probably get a couple three or four years in jail and make their way to whatever countryrun away and live the rest of their lives. but holding leader accountabl is creating a huge kind over like let out your breath. so mubarak's trying is ongoing, it been postponed you have september 24th h and his sons. it will be interesting to see if they will come on the head of the supreme council armed forces to bear witness because they also called himxvice president. the judge has refused to have any more televised hearings which created a hu negative as soon as among people but it's also good becau it makes people focus on the rl issues, let's get back to help this country work again rather than just focusing on the drama and the open opera of the trial. but it will be interesting to see how it ends up. i don't think you have boxes and boxes of testimonials carried into the courtroom.
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it's kind of hilarious. the last session reporters from there the lawyers started beating each other up, someone held up the sign for mubarak. it's very comical and very sad and it gives you insight obviously into egypt's legal system. i thinthere was one tweet i was reading and it talked about how mubarak's sons is probably the first i'm they ever had to see what kind of system the average egyptian has to go through. >> charlie: the accusations in this specific charge as i understand it is primarily he ordered the military to kill protesters. is there among the people you know the journalists who have looked at this i don't know just an average citizen a sense that there is crucial evidence tt will pve that? >> i doubt there will be crucial evidence simply because we had weeks and weeks before even the minister of interior was formed or anything to remove any kind of information tt could have been even remotely, the could prove that case. and i don't think the average citizen actually cares like obviously if they care because
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they are families or the martyrs. that's what people say about the military. what if the millity retains power forever. if they do people will take to the streets again. it's not as simple as before. it isn't like our previous leaders who knew that they could do whatever they want. it's not like any of the charges against anyone, any of the businesses,. it wasn't a surprise that they were taking land for free or they were buildg or even taking our monopoly. it was a system not holding them acuntable, they were above the law. once the barrier of fear that's been broken for the majority of egyptians no locker do have this fear. it's very much no one is above
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the law. we have power, you are empowered and i think once egyptians have felt that there's no going back from the feeling it wasn't that i have a role that my voice is heard that i'm contributing to my country. we never had flags. this is one of the things i've been surprised, the amount of american flags everywhere. we neverad this. the only time we carried our flag was football and we were cheering on our country to play football. but the idea these everyone was proud of their flag, they're proud to be egyptians, to have a voice and to make sure that even on their own individual scale with their community that they will have change. >> charlie: it is delight to talk to you and meet you. >> likewise. >> charlie: thank you very much. >> thank youery much for having me. >> charlie: i hope we can do this again. >> god willing. thank you very much for having me.
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